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Pick any day between 10 and 30 days ago. Can anyone remember the reason on Daily Kos, that day, why Obama was an asshole? Huffington Post -- same deal. While some folks might remember the day within that time-span when they themselves wrote a particularly rabid "Obama is an Asshole Because..." diary, most of us cannot.

We can narrow it down, sure. There are themes within the "Obama is an asshole" mega-meme. There are flavors of "Obama is an asshole" of the day, flavors of the week, et cetera, et ceteros, et ceteri.

Also, there are individual diarists who seem to be expert, Black Belts in every form of "Obama is an Asshole" martial arts. (example: Belching Fat Guy form, Obama is an Asshole)

Right now it's the NSA thing, which is just the latest vehicle by which the far right AND left have chosen to prove that people like Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi are actually neocon tyrants.

Levels of expertise on this sort of thing vary. Back during the BP Gulf blowout, I wasn't an expert, but I did seem a local expert -- even with what I know about that stuff, in retrospect, I got some pretty important stuff dead wrong. One thing I didn't do was jump on any sort of bandwagon. With regard to this NSA stuff, there's an awful lot of bandwagon jumping-on here on Daily Kos. And you accuse those of us who support President Obama of yelling "Cheer Louder"?

How is Glenn Greenwald an expert on this? If he isn't, then who is?

How about David Simon? David Simon wiki is HERE. He's creator of "The Wire".

Now I'm not saying Glenn Greenwald isn't an expert. He's obviously an expert,

1. On what Presidents should do every waking hour while never having been President himself.

2. On why President Obama is an asshole (which makes him particularly popular here on Daily Kos).

From Simon's piece:

You would think that the government was listening in to the secrets of 200 million Americans from the reaction and the hyperbole being tossed about. And you would think that rather than a legal court order which is an inevitable consequence of legislation that we drafted and passed, something illegal had been discovered to the government’s shame.

Nope. Nothing of the kind. Though apparently, the U.K.’s Guardian, which broke this faux-scandal, is unrelenting in its desire to scale the heights of self-congratulatory hyperbole. Consider this from Glenn Greenwald, the author of the piece: “What this court order does that makes it so striking is that it’s not directed at any individual…it’s collecting the phone records of every single customer of Verizon business and finding out every single call they’ve made…it’s indiscriminate and it’s sweeping.”

A little more:
And in fairness, having the FISA courts rulings so hidden from citizen review, makes even the discovery of such misuse problematic. The internal review of that court’s rulings needs to be somehow aggressive and independent, while still preserving national security secrets. That’s very tricky.

But this? Please. This is bullshit.

My kinda guy, although I would have labeled it "fucking bullshit" and do.

If you're going to argue against Simon's take on this, that's fine, but do read the entire piece or you'll appear....

Yes, I can hear the panicked libertarians and liberals and Obama-haters wailing in rare unison: But what about all the innocent Americans caught up in this voracious, overreaching dragnet? To which the answer is obvious if you think about the scale of this: What dragnet?
Or don't read it. A month from now you won't even remember why, on June 9th, 2013, Obama was an asshole. Because there'll be an entirely new reason.

Another piece, this one by Bob Cesca

5. Furthermore, Glenn Greenwald used the phrase “direct access,” as in unobstructed direct server access, four times in his article, most prominently in his lede, “The National Security Agency has obtained direct access to the systems of Google, Facebook, Apple and other US internet giants, according to a top secret document obtained by the Guardian.” Unless the tech companies were collectively lying, Greenwald’s use of “direct access” is inaccurate. And if it’s inaccurate, the most alarming aspect of this NSA story is untrue.

On Twitter, Greenwald defended his reporting by reiterating that the NSA said within the PRISM document that there has been “collection directly from the servers of these US service providers: Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook…” But this could mean that the data was drawn from the servers, vetted and handed over to the NSA per Google’s stated process of legal vetting. And if the data was made available, it’s possible that the tech companies posted it on a server for the NSA analysts to download, just as you might download a file from work or a friend via Dropbox or an FTP server. Regardless, it seems as if Greenwald’s entire story hinges on a semantic interpretation of the PRISM language. And his mistake was to leap from “collection directly from servers” to “direct access.”

6. More exploded heads anyway. Anyone relaying the new information is accused of being an Obamabot.

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Comment Preferences

  •  well you know.... (10+ / 0-)

    ...if he wasn't such an asshole the exceptions would be more notable and remembered.  It is the sheer volume of assholishness from him and all the other members of the government that should be serving us that makes it all blend into one milieu.

    And the underlying theme to your diary is that we shouldn't be concerned because we are only one among many so we can't be the targets,  well until we are that is.

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 01:16:59 AM PDT

    •  You don't get to decide what (34+ / 0-)

      the underlying theme of my diary is. So far, I doubt I've had an underlying theme to any of my diaries.

      Most don't have a theme at all.

      It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

      by Fishgrease on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 01:23:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I beg to differ (17+ / 0-)

        if they start with your name, they're always all about you, aren't they?

        No, really--I get to decide the theme to your diary when I read it. That's called interpretation. Putting it out here for discussion is called a lot of things--for simplicity's sake, let's here refer to it as opinion-making.

        Now, you might not agree with my opinion, in this case on the assholishness of this Obama mess compared to other (real or imaginary) assholishness , but not only do I have a right to an opinion on that, you have the right to interpret it on your own and then write about it. As do I.

        And any one of us is then free to interpret those words of your opinion.

        Because that's what this is, isn't it? In your opinion, anyone that questions this NSA thing is just spewing more non-support for Mr. Obama? Like this is just another day at the fucking office, and if I don't interpret it as such, I'm the real asshole here?

        And who are you to decide that for others?
         

        "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

        by lunachickie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 06:40:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, your piece, and your comments (4+ / 0-)

        reveal a lot about the real purpose of your diary. You criticize delver rootnose for making an observation about the 'underlying theme' of your writing, saying that he doesn't get to decide because of... whatever...(you kind of lost me there), but at the same time, you forget that your piece is a condemnation of other people's writing.

        I would have labeled it "fucking bullshit"
        In other words, overlook what I say because I don't want to hear what you have to say. I'm the only one who gets to criticize...

        But I agree with the statement that there is no underlying theme to your diary...or cogent argument, only spin to deflect criticism of Obama.

    •  The secret of Obama's success is being an asshole (9+ / 0-)

      who was wrong on healthcare until we realized he had somehow managed real reforms, who was naive about the economy and jobs and Republican obstruction until we all started realizing he was systematically working around the special interests by showing all of us how impoverished money as your sole motivation appears to be to minorities, diversities, the young, the old, union workers, teachers, environmentalists and people who would like things to get better, who was untried on foreign policy until he turned out to be able to translate community organizing into a global perspective.

      I don't like his positions on FISA, PRISM, the Patriot Act, the AUMF, Military Commissions, Detainee Treatment, Indefinite Detention, Drones, Assassinations, Transparency devolving into stopping leaks. He's a wrongheaded asshole when it comes to choosing security over civil rights, I grant you that.

      I'm pretty sure his first term focus on health care rather than getting Elizabeth Warrens consumer protection set up to make banks allow moratoriums on mortgages and deprive the banks and wallstreet of their golden parachutes and bonuses gave the Teaparty the house, but I'm happy to have Warren as a Massachusetts Senator and don't mind seeing Obama get more good women into positions of power as judges and cabinet members, members of congress and corporate CEO's

      Obama is an asshole no question about it and hes set precedents for a lot of bad things that we are going to curse him for until the day climate change kills us all.

      I fully expect that when the last Republican is hanged the Democrats will get the majority of the Koch Brothers funding. There are some good Democratic politicians out there and I'm inclined to want to work for them until it becomes obvious that the noun better defines them than the adjective.

      All that being said I prefer what I have seen coming forth from the White House over the last half decade to anything even the Clinton White house accomplished and certainly to anything before that going back to Johnson's War on poverty and FDR's New Deal.

      Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

      by rktect on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 06:28:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  just out of curiosity... (0+ / 0-)

        ..what has he done for unions, no card check or even a working labor relations board, or teachers.  Or the old in regards to SS.  And health care was a really a sellout and was health insurance reform.  Granted there are good things in it but a real crappy foundation to build on.

        We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

        by delver rootnose on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 12:00:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I see Obama as a community organizer (0+ / 0-)

          What he does is "jawbone". He can't actually draft or vote on legislation, he has about the same clout as any other lobbyist, if he can persuade enough people that unions are a good thing then when legislators attempt to pass right to work laws that won't poll well.

          You might better ask why haven't Democrats followed Obama's lead and supported unions more. I ask this question all the time in my State and county committee meetings here in Maine.

          In Maine unions are so underrepresented as to be non existent in the decision making process. In Massachusetts where I made my political bones unions run things; why can't that be true here?

          My answer is half a century of right wing Republican think tanks working on how to obstruct unions at every level because unions translate as votes for Democrats.

          That's why Reagan broke the air traffic controllers even though his actions made flying unsafe and endangered Americans every time they flew for decades thereafter.

          Republicans are successfully obstructing unions because they have single mindedly focused on that obstruction. I expect that eventually the results of that obstruction will cause enough blowback that they will no longer be successful doing it.

          As regards healthcare you really need to look at whats coming after 2014. The same with social security and C-CPI-E being incorporated in C-CPI-U. Go back and look at some of my earlier posts where I've gone into those issues at length.

          Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

          by rktect on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 06:00:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Some are lost in Red Dawn and some the Matrix. (15+ / 0-)

    I google my address it comes up in a very poor part of town. You know the one step above homeless neighborhood. Ha Ha. I know people from my class reunion snooped on me. It's funny thinking about their eyes popping out of their heads.

    •  I'm more concerned that before I logged on (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      88kathy, 1BQ, Sylv

      I was seeing ads on the site for some power wash detergent.  Funny, just last week I was searching for power wash detergent online and now there are ads here on Daily Kos showing exactly what I had purchased last week. Wow remarkable.  Someone must be reading my mind.

      can we all...just get...along-Rodney King

      by nspguy on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 10:34:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I know, they still don't have it down yet. I buy (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        1BQ, kj in missouri, Sylv, nspguy

        something and then I start seeing ads for the thing I bought. Except I don't want it anymore, I bought it already.

        Of course when I start seeing ads for stuff before I want it, it will be over and we can just surrender.

        When I was a little kid they had a survey taker asking about prizes in cereal come talk to me. I said that the prizes should be secret. Well probably lots of other kids said that too because they came out with a cereal box that had a secret prize in it. I can remember thinking, that was a stupid idea, and feeling a little bit sorry they listened to me.

        give the NRA the Royal Flush join Stop The NRA

        by 88kathy on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:28:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  ^^^ This. Google knows more about me than (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sylv, Onomastic

      my mother does. The worst part about it? I consented to their invasive data collection and sharing policies, which they can change at any time, with or without notice.

      Frankly, I'm way more concerned about what a for-profit corporation will do with online information about me than I am about the gov't. Right now, it's for "delivering targeted advertising," like I give a rat's ass about personalized ads; I never click any ad on any site.

      But while Google may or may not sell my entire online history to a prospective employer, landlord, or lender today, there's nothing to prevent them from doing so in the future. Not for national security, but to increase their profits.

      Yes, I regularly massage privacy settings in online services - email, Facebook, Twitter, etc. - and am scrupulous about what information I choose to share. But most people don't read the fine print in those privacy statements and terms of use agreements that they have to agree to before they can use a site, they just click OK because... hell, I don't know why anyone agrees to any terms that they haven't read and thoroughly comprehended. Nor do they know how to interpret some of the language in these agreements, especially the ones in plain language, because they seem transparent. The following example is from Google, but it could be from LinkedIn, Microsoft, or Facebook.

      We use information collected from cookies and other technologies, like pixel tags, to improve your user experience and the overall quality of our services. For example, by saving your language preferences, we’ll be able to have our services appear in the language you prefer.
      Note that the use of "for example" isn't in any way restrictive. It's just one example of what they use your data for, but there are many others. If this said, "For example, by saving your search and browsing history, we'll be able to sell your searches on medical conditions and treatments to your employer if we choose to do so," would you agree to it? It's not quite so innocent-sounding, is it?

      Nor do most people periodically re-examine their privacy settings because policies also change, often without notice. And because they don't, they've voluntarily exposed their personal data to commercial entities, which have far fewer constraints on what they may legally do with that data than the government has.

      Worried about your data? You have far more to be concerned about by remaining signed in to Gmail, G+, Hotmail, Facebook, LinkedIn, or Twitter than you have from government snooping. And even if you sign out from online services when you're not actively using them, your browsing history can still be collected. Google again:

      As Google noted in 2009:
      Previously, we only offered Personalized Search for signed-in users, and only when they had Web History enabled on their Google Accounts. What we're doing today is expanding Personalized Search so that we can provide it to signed-out users as well. This addition enables us to customize search results for you based upon 180 days of search activity linked to an anonymous cookie in your browser.
      Here's a summary of the PRISM program that is written more from a technical perspective  than from an ideological one. Yes, there's stuff to be concerned about. But I fear what Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Facebook, and LinkedIn are doing with my data far more than what the government is doing.

      Want privacy? Then stay of the internet!

  •  OMG I read the diary again Fishgrease says they've (20+ / 0-)

    got neuralyzers.

    A month from now you won't even remember
  •  PBO is not an asshole. (30+ / 0-)

    But I will call out bullshit policy, and praise good policy, while keeping an open mind, until my last breath.

    This "NSA thing" is not a "vehicle." At this point, I shouldn't be surprised at how deep the neo-con rot has set into this body politic.

    But here we are.

  •  Had a twitter discussion with a Canadian friend of (22+ / 0-)

    mine wherein I pointed out that gmail had targeted ads based on the CONTENT of your emails. He said he agreed to that in the Google Terms of Service, but did not agree to giving information to a foreign government (that being the USA).

    Told him to re-read that Terms of Service. Google specifically says they will pass on certain forms of data to governments, not just the USA.

    I remember when gmail first started with those targeted ads. I sent emails including the phrases like "huge anal dildo" just to see how far they'd take it.

    It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

    by Fishgrease on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 01:40:41 AM PDT

    •  OMG ! my phone has a file that lists every single (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Onomastic, Sylv, edrie

      phone number i've called and how many minutes i spent on the phone for each call  and My phone COMPANY KNOWS all of this and every month they send me a PRINTED REPORT about every single one and they are extorting MONEY from me or else they will cut off my phone !
      Facebook some how (picture analysis ?) knows  that in summer the sun bleaches my eyebrows to invisibility and keeps suggesting a page for some tinting product ...But google thinks I'm a 60 yr old man so go figure ;^)

    •  That anyone here thinks the gov gives a shit (6+ / 0-)

      about their emails is the most yawn-inducing part of the outrage. I'm not happy about it either because the gov has power to really abuse it, but I sort of accepted the idea when I was 14 and realized that the companies providing me free email and web services were absofuckinglutely keeping the data on me to sell to advertisers.

      I was gonna listen to that, but then, um, I just carried on living my life. - Aldous Snow

      by GoGoGoEverton on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 08:23:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, I hope someday you don't decide to get (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DeadHead, TracieLynn

        involved in anti-government demonstrations and actions meant to disrupt it.

        Though I don't believe in guns being a legitimate means of revolting against an oppressive government, I do believe people have the right to assemble and organize against such a government without fear of secret reprisals.

        This metadata collection can easily be used to thwart people's First Amendment right to assemble.

        We have to consider the potential misuse of government power.

        Physics is bulls**t. Don't let them fool you. Fire IS magic.
        (Facts brought to you by the Party of the Future - the GOP)

        by Pescadero Bill on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 10:50:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  From Sam Harris: (19+ / 0-)
    Have you spent 5 minutes of your life seriously thinking about the prospect of nuclear terrorism?
    I think day one as President, anyone, including Glenn Greenwald would be presented with stuff that made them go,

    "No shit?"

    "Oh no!"

    "Fuck!"

    It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

    by Fishgrease on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 01:50:42 AM PDT

  •  Well, I can remember one day (20+ / 0-)

    But it falls outside of your 10-30 day time frame.

    Sotomayor.

    Regarding this NSA thing, however, he's the head of the Executive branch responsible for interpreting the Patroit Act that was passed by his predecessor. So if it's getting renewed attention now, while he's president, the buck stops with him.

    I keep saying this across different threads: the Patriot Act sucks as much now as much as it did then. The only thing that's changed is the person in the Oval Office, in this regard.

    And no, I wouldn't be crying "Obama didn't protect us" if these policies were dismantled and something ended up happening.

    Because something DID happen WHILE these overreaching policies were operative: Boston.

    And I didn't blame Obama.




    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
    ~ Jerry Garcia

    by DeadHead on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 01:51:38 AM PDT

  •  If you're going to decline cetera, the genetive (9+ / 0-)

    would be ceterus. Assuming anyone would want to decline it.... Howsomever, and aside from that, I too find it hard to get overly frantic about the latest revelations.

    This has been going on for years. We've known it was going on for years. All that neat data out there, and somebody thought it was going to be left alone?

    This feels to me as though somebody set up a leak that was just tempting enough to bite on.  Who? I dunno - who's been pushing the last three or four "scandals" that didn't stick well enough?

    At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

    by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 01:56:13 AM PDT

    •  The documents indicate (4+ / 0-)

      High-level security clearances were needed to be able to get at this info, so it wasn't just some republican senator or something.




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 02:08:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yup. That's why I said (6+ / 0-)

        set up a leak. Washington is a network of favors owed, among other things, so I don't imagine it would be too hard to do. Especially since, as far as I can tell, what was leaked is going to do minimal damage to anything that's actually running. Lots of sound and fury, lots of people upset, but nothing particularly critical.

        The AT&T San Francisco 'locked room' mess did relatively little damage to any of the players, and that was (in internet terms), a very long time ago. This probably won't have as much long term impact as that did. But as one more thing that keeps the American public from noticing how little is actually getting done towards solving their real problems, it's a winner.

        At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

        by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 02:22:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'd say that vast electronic depositories of (7+ / 0-)

          information collected, let say even with the acknowledgement of citizens via TOS gobbledegook, run though NSA supercomputers and archived indefinitely ad infinitum is a "real problem."

          This is not one's grandad's FBI file.

          •  I can't argue with you - and it is a real problem. (6+ / 0-)

            What I'm hoping, and I do have some real hope, is that it will also turn out to be a real solution.

            Yes, this much data in one place makes it simpler, sort of, to carry out an imperial, or radical, or conservative (or name your favorite ideology or class or economic) agenda. It may also, for the first time, let us take a look at what questions we should be asking about people and how they interact on a large scale.

            One thing about data mining is that the data hands you patterns that you couldn't see before you had it. Those patterns aren't necessarily going to be the ones anyone expects. If we're lucky, it will give us some slightly more solid background as to what's really needed to make some positive changes.

            At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

            by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 03:07:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  fj, look at it realistically. when was the last (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            serendipityisabitch, Yasuragi

            time you backed up your computer?  when was the last time you cleaned out your email account?

            when we are given more and more storage room to "file" data, that means that we now have amounts that are bloody well impossible to retrieve and examine - the sheer volume is overwhelming - and that is just for one individual.

            the government has an algorithm set to spot anomalies in data that fit certain patterns.  those files are kicked out like a punch card of old - yet the vast terabytes petabytes (not the animal fanatic kind of bytes) are impossible for any individual or individuals to examine individually.  add to that data more coming in continually and you have enough data to reach mars and back if the bytes were strung end to end (okay - that is a bit of hyperbole).

            realistically, this is a faux "scandal" being played on people who don't have a clue and not enough money to buy one.

            we are in an electronic age - and, frankly, i'm glad we have the technology to extract dangerous data from the universe of information that is flying around the globe continually.

            i actually DO feel a bit safer know that - it makes getting on an airplane, going to a large event a bit easier.

            now, i really DO need to go get coffee - i'm getting testier by the minute - not a good time to blog.

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 10:58:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think that comparing the consumer's usage and (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Onomastic

              storage of datum is on the same scale as the government's collection of and ability to parse through nearly unimaginable amount of data is not the same, for one.

              While civil libertarians (small l) have been warning about this trend  for decades, this comparison is by now apples and oranges. The old saw I remember from my days as a network admin is that "its all only ones and zeros." Cute, but not quite accurate.

              I'll leave the accusations of "clueless" and "chump" for someone else.

              •  actually, it very much IS the same. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Onomastic

                do you have any idea the size of the computer (translate, speed of processor) that is needed to sort ALL the data that is currently being transmitted worldwide?

                yes, the government has supercomputers, but the data is constantly incoming and the data stored is enormous - more than the average non-geek can process.

                what programs are looking for are patterns - specific connections that are most likely based on information "we" already have - i.e., phone numbers, areas from which known problems arise (like yemen, afghanistan, iran, etc.) and areas that hard intelligence on the ground has flagged.

                it takes programmers to write the code to look for patterns.  i doubt very seriously that code is being written to peruse the emails of individuals who show up for a protest UNLESS that protester has participated in activities (like the black bloc) that are potentially harmful to others.

                there is such paranoia today by everyone who thinks THEY are so important that the president and government in d.c. (with all the real issues going on in the world) will come in and read their emails or tweets (like those tweets aren't already in the public venue) that it is laughable.

                that self-assigned self-importance of those who are really (for all practical purposes) irrelevant to the real issues today truly amazes me.

                as someone who was "shadowed" for two summers by the state bureau of investigation in n.c (all the while, totally oblivious to it), i have a different take on all this.

                when my colleague was murdered at the lost colony, i had just met her that day and just arrived at the company when she disappeared that night.  i moved into the apt where she lived shortly after she was found murdered.

                what i did not know at the time was that her suspected killer was a local dentist who grabbed her because she looked like his wife - and, i looked like both of them.

                because there was insufficient evidence to charge him, the s.b.i. followed me for two summers to make sure he didn't come after me and also to be there to catch him if he did.

                when he moved out of the area was when i lost my "shadow" - was i perturbed to find out that everywhere i went, i was watched?  actually, yes.  but i was also grateful because i had no idea that i was at risk.

                so, government surveilance is a good thing when done for the right reasons.

                now i'm off to the barn - back later if you want to talk about this more...

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 01:03:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I find that "set up as a leak" rather far-fetched (3+ / 0-)

          They've already raised enough of a stink to make producing a culprit damn near MANDATORY.

          Who's gonna take the fall for it then? That's a hell of a favor to ask somebody to cash-in.




          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
          ~ Jerry Garcia

          by DeadHead on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 02:54:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You might want to check out the link (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Onomastic

            in jazzence's comment. It has some interesting comments on the actual leaked presentation. (Well, interesting to me, anyway.)

            At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

            by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 03:38:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's only pointing out the Washington Post (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Onomastic

              walking it's part of the story back, not discrediting the entire set of events from the last few days, so far as I can tell from a quick reading of it.

              I'm also not seeing anything that addresses my original comment to you questioning the likelihood of a high level person leaking stuff as a favor for somebody trying to take down the president.

              But perhaps I missed it.




              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
              ~ Jerry Garcia

              by DeadHead on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 04:38:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  There's a note there on the quality of the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Onomastic

                presentation that was leaked - rough, and looked as though it were intended as a marketing presentation. Do you have any links that actually show the full presentation? I haven't seen any, and at this point, I'd like to.

                At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

                by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 06:48:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  yep. it's the DON'T look at THAT hand - look over (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          serendipityisabitch

          HERE!!!

          the republicans are winning at this game - and the sad little people who fall for the trick every time never see it coming the next time, either.

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 10:52:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, I tend to agree with you, especially (20+ / 0-)

      your last paragraph. Been wondering the same.

      The timing of this after "Benghazi!", "IRS!", all the time, makes me wonder if Greenwald and the Guardian have been played.

      That said, it does not preclude real concerns about rights to privacy, if any are left, the tension between the need for transparency versus protection from terrorist attacks, and the use and misuse of information.

      But all of those should have been an ongoing discussion for years.

      The irony is that the at least we are engaging in it now, something the President said we needed to do in his speech on Foreign Policy.

      But back to your last point as to the specifics of this supposed "new" information, yes, I can't help but wonder about the timing of all this.

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." Hubert H. Humphrey

      by Onomastic on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 02:24:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Very well said: (20+ / 0-)
        That said, it does not preclude real concerns about rights to privacy, if any are left, the tension between the need for transparency versus protection from terrorist attacks, and the use and misuse of information.

        But all of those should have been an ongoing discussion for years.

        It rubs the loofah on its skin or else it gets the falafel again.

        by Fishgrease on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 02:30:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There's a problem with having an ongoing (8+ / 0-)

        discussion about data mining - or even data retrieval. The real points that need to be made tend to put an awful lot of people to sleep - including the ones that are most likely to benefit from, or be compromised by, the results.

        I read numbers for a living for a couple of years back about 30 years ago when the best thing I had to work with was a 5-1/2" disk driven IBM pc. Great fun, but I never had anyone, especially the people who were benefiting from the analysis, want to know how the results were gotten. Anything more than a really glib couple of sentences was enough to end the conversation really fast.

        Once the initial over the top reactions have petered out, I expect any discussion about the actual methods and safeguards to be pretty short, except possibly in the computer journals/magazines, because you sort of have to be a geek to care. And besides, people who want to cause harm can and will still make stuff up, blame it on the NSA, and proceed to mess people's lives up the same way they did before.

        If we're lucky, the real functional data mining process will actually get good enough to spot real threats in time to do something about them. Whether those results will be listened to, any more than the warnings before 9/11, is anybody's guess.

        At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

        by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 02:50:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, it's going to be interesting watching this (10+ / 0-)

          story and what does or does not develop.

          Was talking on the cell phone with a friend yesterday about all this.

          At one point I said, "An average person could be in the parking lot across the way using a completely legal gadget that allows them to listen in on our conversation."

          We have stores selling spy ware that anyone can purchase.

          I think that is just plain wrong.

          There is so much about our technology that we have not begun to come to terms with.

          And that needs to be part of this conversation as well.

           

          "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." Hubert H. Humphrey

          by Onomastic on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 03:03:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  oh, serendipityisabitch, you are a person after my (3+ / 0-)

          own heart!

          i keep thinking of how data is stored, how it is retrieved, the bits and bytes and the absurdity of all the chest thumping that is going on over this because people DON'T know the process of data mining.

          i love the breakdown of how the puter stores info - machine language, etc., but - as you aptly put it - folks will glaze over after two sentences unless they are really into geekitude.

          this is much ado about nothing - and it is funny to see people so bent out of shape over something about which they have absolutely NO understanding.  this whole "reading my emails!" bit is really funny and sad at the same time.

          i just hope the programs doing the mining are being kept up to date with the actual threats out there.  i am in awe that there are programs that can spot these tiny fragments in an ocean of information and grab them before something happens.

          i admire the mind that wrote that program/algorithm... reminds me of a friend years ago who was able to write the most brilliant programs to make problem solving seem so simple.

          thanks for your comment - took me back to the days of wang... and sitting through three weeks of a course on machine language.  loved it.  was disappointed when the class had to end.

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:07:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, we're the same age, at least - (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            edrie, Onomastic, Yasuragi

            for whatever that's worth. My hopes aren't in the algorithms, though, as I mentioned above. They're in the people who set up the algorithms, who have to actually sit and digest the data. There have to be useful patterns there for more things than terrorist apprehension, and with any luck, we'll start finding them.

            I think it would be great if one of the side effects of this mess was actually a beginning of a real science of human interaction. Mind you, I'm not holding my breath.

            At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

            by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:28:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yep - human interaction - and data analysis. (3+ / 0-)

              the sad thing is that on this site of late, there is (on certain topics) little "interaction" and a whole lot of name calling from entrenched positions.

              one day - maybe - we'll get dialogue back again.

              EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

              by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:38:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The dialogue is still happening, it just needs (3+ / 0-)

                to be sifted out from the rest. I'm actually happy with the current mix - there's quite a bit of good stuff floating around. Compared to lots of real world places, where once you finish sifting there's nothing left, I won't carp about the time it takes. Much. ;)

                At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

                by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:54:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  what worries me is that we are wasting time that (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Onomastic, serendipityisabitch, Sylv

                  we need to keep the 2014 election from going wrong.

                  one other thing that bothers me is that there is a whole lot of "criticizing" and not a whole lot of suggestions on how to change things.

                  i learned years ago that if you want to offer criticism, then have a suggestion for how to fix the problem.

                  that is why, i just realized, that i use the word "whining" - because there is a whole lot of complaining and not very much in way of putting forward real, workable solutions to the problems we face.

                  EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                  by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 12:48:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Suggestions are a bit scarce on the ground, (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sylv, edrie, Onomastic

                    at present. I'm inclined to think that OFA has the best chance of doing something, if they can get their shit together, but without the attraction of a national candidate, it's going to take an enormous amount of work to generate turnout. It always does on off years.

                    One of the reasons I stay out of most of the discussions is that I don't have any solid ideas, and I pride myself on being able to generate sideways perspectives. And I generally won't complain about something unless I can offer an alternative.

                    You have my sympathies, but I don't have much else to offer.

                    At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

                    by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 01:29:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  That's always the excuse (0+ / 0-)

                    For not talking about the unpleasant stuff.

                    What specific opportunities have we lost in the fight against republicans as a result of talking about this NSA thing for the last few days?

                    How have our chances for retaking the House in 2014 been lessened by having this discussion?

                    That you would dismiss any dissenting discussion as merely "whining" devoid of any substance is not surprising.




                    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                    ~ Jerry Garcia

                    by DeadHead on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 01:39:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  or, If I was a Secret agent fairy Princess (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Onomastic, Sylv, edrie

      and I wanted to build a broad based multi partisan citizen/congressional coalition to limit or repeal the Patriot Act, I would totally leak a doc that described some of it's NSA ickiness to The Guardian & someone like Greenwald, whose job it is to flame outrage and then watch even the far right begin to screech about it's over reach. Then I'd chill and sit back as they do the work for me while they think it all was their idea. Yup that's what i would do... Tee hee

  •  There I was, up far too early and ready to (11+ / 0-)

    head back to bed when I saw that you'd posted.

    So a cup of tea has been and sleep forgone, with expectations of a robust conversation.

    Good morning and thank you. :)

    "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." Hubert H. Humphrey

    by Onomastic on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 02:30:12 AM PDT

  •  YAY ! it's crusty ol' Fishgrease ! (8+ / 0-)

    makin' us do that thinkin' thing again.
    well. good. but i'm not awake.
    and i spent all day yesterday trying to track down some lighthouse in Maine named 'Greasy Frogg,' if you can spend a whole bunch of hours with zee-row to show for it.

    hiya, Greasy Fishe.

    still, it looks like we "weren't supposed to EVER know," and that sticks in my craw -- or crop, as it were.

    there hasn't been a particular day i felt POTUS was assholish, but i don't play poker, either. and for the chewy bits, i still defer to marcy.

    There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.--@Hugh * Addington's Perpwalk: TRAILHEAD of Accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 02:47:34 AM PDT

  •  sigh (13+ / 0-)

    The real story in the NSA scandal is the collapse of journalism

    The real story appears to be much less controversial than the original alarming accusations. All of the companies involved have established legal procedures to respond to warrants from a law enforcement agency or a court. None of them appear to be participating with widespread surveillance.

    "It strikes me as gruesome and comical that in our culture we have an expectation that a man can always solve his problems" - Kurt Vonnegut

    by jazzence on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 03:06:16 AM PDT

    •  An interesting piece, to say the least. (8+ / 0-)

      I remember the "old days" when journalist would demand verification from more than one source before publishing a story.

      These days it seems like crucially important issues are either not looked at, at all, or are completely mishandled in the rush for attention or the push for spin.

      That's why I'm taking my time on this latest "scandal" that has the punditry in such an uproar.

      "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." Hubert H. Humphrey

      by Onomastic on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 03:23:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  cbs - three independent sources or the story (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Onomastic, kj in missouri, Yasuragi

        was a no-go.

        but today, all one needs is a "name" and a supply of outrage-on-a-stick to be famous and followed.

        sometimes i think the internet has devolved the critical thinking process into a "following process for twits tweets.

        "real intelligence" in 140 characters or less.

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:10:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hi, edrie! :) (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kj in missouri, edrie, Yasuragi

          Nicely said.

          There is far too much of it. There's not enough time taken for research and analysis, just knee jerk reactions.

          Not a big fan of that. Think it's a huge disservice to any hope of having a rational, respectful, examination of issues and any solutions.

          "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." Hubert H. Humphrey

          by Onomastic on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:43:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yeah but, (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            edrie, Onomastic, shanesnana, Yasuragi

            (and dare i say this!) we're women.  the steroetype i'm going for here is...  we like to talk.  we like to examine a thing from beginning to end.   we like to "hmmmm" and have a cuppa and come to solutions (or the lack of) in a bit of peace and quiet before we don the combat boots and raise hell fire.   ;-)

            good Sunday afternoon to you both!

            "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

            by kj in missouri on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 12:25:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  morning, kj - hope your sunday is going great! (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kj in missouri, Yasuragi, Onomastic

              i'm waiting for a phone call from the hay guy to see how much i owe for the shavings for da sanman - then i'm off to the barn!

              hope you've got a great day planned beyond the great orange distraction!

              EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

              by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 12:33:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  hey, edrie! (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Onomastic

                sounds like a good plan for your afternoon. ;-)

                i'm laid up, literally, for a bit until this knee heals from surgery.
                i have some writing and communicating to do, but it can wait.   :-)  windows open, sun shining, breeze blowing, great orange distraction and a tab full of links 'to read later.'  i take the peace when i can get it!  

                "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                by kj in missouri on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 12:44:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  okay - this is CRITICAL! make sure you don't (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kj in missouri, Onomastic

                  slack off on physical therapy!  start early and work diligently.

                  when i had my hand surgery, the idiot therapist was "really booked" and didn't schedule my therapy for almost a month.

                  i now face additional surgery to try to scrape out the scar tissue - it forms by three weeks - and my hand that was my "good" hand is now a claw, almost unusable.

                  while you are enjoying that breeze - do your exercises!

                  hugs your way filled with peace!

                  EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                  by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 01:05:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  i'm listening! (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    edrie

                    i'm doing them, albeit modified, as a baker's cyst has developed.   will see the surgeon again this coming week and hopefully back to driving and going to PT.   did PT prior to surgery and i think it helped (?).

                    i am so sorry about your hand.  is there anything, deep tissue related, that could help break up the fascia and scar tissue and regain more function?

                    hi to the horses!   :-)

                    "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                    by kj in missouri on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 03:44:39 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  there IS no "deep tissue" - the two joints are (0+ / 0-)

                      the middle finger joints (pip).  already had my point worker look and he also says "surgery".

                      i'm trying dmso, castor oil poultices, will try heavy duty magnets (since the mri actually loosened the scarring a bit)... anything to avoid surgery, but i'm realizing that it may not be possible.

                      if i have to go that route, now is the time while my pony is still recovering - then we both get back in/under saddle at the same time.

                      will go for a second opinion first.

                      also this is the better time since i'm having to sue my (only) sister over my mom's estate.  she has YET to tell me she closed probate in sept, 2011 - with a will my mother never knowingly signed.  

                      sigh... siblings and money - it's so very very sad - but i won't let her dishonor mom and dad this way.  it goes against everything they ever tried to teach us - honesty, integrity, love...

                      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                      by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 09:45:38 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  you pegged it for me as to why so many of the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sylv

            diaries of late annoy the heck out of me... it's the knee-jerk effect - reacting badly to what MIGHT be happening or what is rumored to be occurring.

            then, the facts come out and all the breastbeating was for naught.

            i am reminded of the parable of the person who goes to her mentor/priest/spiritual advisor/etc., and say,

            "forgive me for i have sinned - i have spread a lie (rumor)"

            the mentor/priest/spiritual advisor/etc. says "go to the highest hilltop and release these feathers from this pillow for pennance".

            she says, "i can do that!"

            then the mentor/priest/spiritual advisor/etc. says, "now go and gather them all up again and put them back in the case"

            she exclaims petulently, "i can't do THAT! it is IMPOSSIBLE!"

            and the mentor/priest/spiritual advisor/etc. says, "that is what you do when you spread a lie/rumor.

            so much of that resonates with the hyperventilated reporting of a greenwald or others who are so very wrong in what they "report" - once the words are spoken/written, they cannot be all undone.  some of those wrong ideas escape and are perpetuated and perpetuated.

            and, what we end up with is a society built upon lies/rumors.

            that is why i am so vehement in challenging half-truths, flat out untruths, distortions, etc.

            someone has to pick up the damned feathers that were not collected the first time.

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 12:39:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Key words... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nada Lemming

      "None of them APPEAR to be participating in WIDESPREAD surveillance."




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 03:30:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A great link - thanks! (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Onomastic, Matt Z, jazzence, Sylv, Yasuragi

      At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

      by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 03:35:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hes not an asshole... (3+ / 0-)

    nor is he the change we were looking for.

    Personally would care of hes the prior if he was also the latter.

    Truth is i;m not that upset we don;t get to vote for anyone that could be real change.

    Im just wondering when we as a people will take whats left of our democracy back.

    Or will it be like SW1 where it dies to much fanfare and applause...

    The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function [Albert A. Bartlett]

    by fToRrEeEsSt on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 04:32:31 AM PDT

  •  Glenn Greewald doesn't do my online banking (8+ / 0-)

    with me in real time.

    Since neither does Barack Obama, conflating concern about the NSA's total intelligence gathering with hatin' on the POTUS is neither necessary nor seemly.

    Regardless, this is such a huge issue no one in the room's notice what the two major parties aren't doing as much of right now:

    They're not sniping as much at each other, which could be for either of two reasons

    1. they're girding for a showdown
    2. it might not be with each other, but with critics of a program that both parties have supported heavily in the past

    The party that breaks first with total intelligence gathering will reap immense electoral rewards.

    Just because they bray the loudest for national security doesn't mean it won't be the Republicans who break faith with a bipartisan pact.

    I mean... it's not like that sort of bad rep ever bothered our right wing brethren and if they can corner the Democrats into standing up for a national shame then they'll do it, and shamelessly.

    Because in politics it's not who starts the wrongdoing but whose career is finished by it.

  •  It's almost as if US Presidents (7+ / 0-)

    do a lot of bad stuff, and so there's always a plethora of ways to criticize them.

    I read the David Simon piece and am not convinced. This commenter on the article sums up many of my reasons nicely:

    I see major differences between your Baltimore scenario and this. Firstly, the nature of spying vs. police work, the first being to ostensibly prevent crime/terrorism and the second being to catch a criminal once we are pretty sure a crime has happened. The needs are then very different, ongoing surveillance vs info needed for a particular case. The second is obviously the scope. ‘People using payphones in Baltimore for the period of the investiagtion’ is obviously a much smaller group than ‘anyone using a cell phone/social media site in America from here to eternity’. It’s the ongoing and blanket nature of the surveillance that I think has many people concerned. Next, I’m not sure why you appear to be trusting the very same people at their word regarding the scope of PRISM who were hiding this program in the first place. I am right with you in a complete lack of surprise that this was going on after the Patriot act but the reality here is a little jolting.
    That said, at least the Simon article is an argument. "You criticized Obama 10 or 30 days ago! And Glenn Greenwald isn't an expert!" is not an argument.

    "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

    by TealTerror on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 05:30:18 AM PDT

    •  Oh, and also (6+ / 0-)

      from the same comments section, David Simon says this:

      And based on distinctions made clear to me right off the bat by some of those I was arguing with, I’ve come around on the matter of PRISM and the internet. The basic safeguards that exist for telephonic communication don’t yet exist for internet communication, and they should. At least for interpersonal emails and such, if not for posts to more public sites. No one should have much expectation of privacy on the internet, but given the role of e-communication in the modern world, that certainly needs to change in certain aspects. And therefore, unlike my opinion about this Verizon court order, the PRISM program, while legal, argues for corresponding safeguards, sooner rather than later.

      "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

      by TealTerror on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 06:02:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Dworkin on FP adds some cents... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fishgrease, cotterperson, Onomastic

    and i'm just sharing.

    i'm a nice bird.
    .......................

    @Hugh: There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution. * Addington's perpwalk is the trailhead of accountability for Bush-2 Crimes.

    by greenbird on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 05:30:54 AM PDT

  •  Somewhere during that time frame (12+ / 0-)

    There are the innocent dead (collateral damage) from some drone strike. That's asshole worthy.

    BOHICA (somewhat of an expert on the subject of killing innocents)
    RA18960500
    Repentant ex member of Murder Inc.
    Southeast Asia Division

    Help me to be the best Wavy Gravy I can muster

    by BOHICA on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 06:13:09 AM PDT

  •  I've stayed out of the (8+ / 0-)

    hair on fire diaries because I prefer more reasoned discussion on this issue.  I'll comment here and then be done with this theme (I hope).

    Most folks -- I'd warrant a very solid majority -- have already voluntarily given up a shiteload of privacy rights.  Cell phones have GPS, Facebook is a laughable tragedy re: opening up one's life to the world (hence I would never join), every little tag on one's keychain for the supermarket Best Buy, Staples, is tracking one's buying patterns.  Emails can be forwarded without your permission.  Lots of the same people screaming about a police state adore Anonymous.  

    Ok, I'm finished.  Spying has been done forever.  FDR is responsible for the rise of J.Edgar Hoover and his odious spying machine -- every president thereafter was too afraid to fire the bastard.  The only thing that's changed is the sophistication of technology.

    " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 06:18:52 AM PDT

    •  You've given examples of informed consent (5+ / 0-)

      Which doesn't apply to this situation.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 07:49:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Also, FDR wasn't responsible for JE Hoover (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy, jgnyc, Onomastic, triv33

      Wilson was, pursuant to the Espionage Act and Palmer Raids.

      Ironic, of course, because Wilson is also considered to be the first progressive Democratic president. And a racist segregationist.

      Irony abounds on the sunny side of the street.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 07:52:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Reading comprehension (0+ / 0-)

        is fundamental.  My exact words are

        FDR is responsible for the rise of J.Edgar Hoover and his odious spying machine -
        FDR was warned about Hoover's avaricious need for power over everything including the OSS.  Under his Administration, FDR became a cyclone of horror and intimidation.  I stand by my statement.

        And your last sentence is basically why I stay out of the diaries on this topic.  4th grade insults abound.

        You and everyone else won't read my reply because it is late.  I was busy doing the important stuff of the nation.  Planting vegetables.

        " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 08:15:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hoover was well on his way before FDR (0+ / 0-)

          Wilson, Harding, Coolidge and Hoover made him. FDR just made him even more powerful. And I'm fairly certain that OSS was able to handle Hoover on its own.

          Anyway, enjoy the veggies. I had to skip gardening this year. I miss it.

          "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

          by kovie on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 03:12:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Barack Obama is not an asshole... (6+ / 0-)

    As asshole comes out and tells you he/she is doing something you do not approve of...in spite of your disapproval. Dick Cheney is an asshole.

    Barack Obama, on the other hand, smiles and tells you he is one thing...then does another. I find that sort of governing to be dishonest and manipulative...and I refuse to endorse it, regardless of who he is and what his role in history may be.

    I think an honest citizen trying to hold his/her government accountable will call BS on any policy he/she disagrees with...even if it's a Democrat he/she disagrees with. That is not only our right in this country, but our responsibility.

    Adequate health care should be a LEGAL RIGHT in the U.S without begging or bankruptcy. Until it is, we should not dare call our society civilized.

    by Love Me Slender on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 06:31:46 AM PDT

  •  Most Recent Midterm Election Results: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TJ, Fishgrease

    The party he leads took a historic loss for either party.

    And we're heading into another one with the Republicans solidly on track with what they were doing this time for the last one.

    If we don't gain seats, then by any political measure he's an asshole once more.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 06:46:47 AM PDT

  •  Whenever I see "Obama is an asshole" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z

    diaries, I think "All the people in government are assholes because they are too cowardly, greedy, comfortable, caught up in their own power and unable to see the forest for the trees." and I then blame the whole lot of them.  

    I would think it was a conspiracy except I don't give many of them that much credit.  They are not really smart enough to coordinate their assholery.  Instead, they are individually assholes protecting their own ass which appears to us as if it is coordinated.  

    Surrounding the president are a whole lot of people who think they are the smartest guy in the room, and they are also the biggest cowards.  They don't want to be the one who sticks there neck out and say this is wrong.  If they do they have to go back to their donors, superiors, colleagues, private sector, and say they rocked the boat and created a problem for everyone else.  Who wants to be that guy?  It is much easier to let things slide along, continue collecting your paycheck, get reelected, have a job after you get out of office, collect a pension when you decide to retire...

    Then there is the whole fact that if President Obama were to end the patriot act, reduce the "war on terror", defund Homeland Security, he would be seen as weak, the democrats would be seen as weak.  There is a whole lot invested, dollars, power and image, in keeping the security state intact.

    Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will. Mark Twain

    by whoknu on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 07:31:36 AM PDT

  •  Glad you're back (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, Onomastic, Yasuragi

    haven't had an opportunity to say so before.

  •  So the more authoritarian excesses we discover (7+ / 0-)

    the more incumbent it is upon us, as non-exploding heads, to assert our a priori belief that President Obama has more wisdom than his critics?

    Fucking blank check.

    "I am confident that we're going to be able to leave the Gulf Coast in better shape than it was before." President Barack Obama

    by quagmiremonkey on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 07:38:08 AM PDT

  •  So, basically, because David Simon (4+ / 0-)

    agrees with you and Glenn Greenwald doesn't (and he lives in Brazil with his gay boyfriend oh my!), we're all ODS-suffering nutjobs.

    Got it.

    Any more Deep Thoughts, Mr. Handy?

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 07:46:10 AM PDT

  •  For me, this particular set of (3+ / 0-)

    issues is a genuine Obama is an asshole moment.  this is one of the genuine areas where Obama is in full executive  control, yet failed.  That is, just because the patriot act makes it legal to do all this stuff, it does not mean that Obama has to do it.  There are many legal things that presidents choose to not do, cause doing them is wrong.  Obama chose to use a highly invasive form of surveillance...that was his choice, a choice I disagree with.

    Now, the thing that I don't get is the faux 'surprise and shock' that folks are spouting.  I mean seriously, I have assumed for years that all calls are monitored, and frankly I've assumed more monitored than what has thus far been revealed.

    I find it hard to beleive the people who,are acting shocked now were ever so naive to not think it was already happening.

    Yes, getting the documents is important, it allows the ACLU to move this into legal realms, but have any of us actually learned anything we didn't already assume to be the case?

    "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

    by Empty Vessel on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 07:53:01 AM PDT

    •  Common defense of Obama has been "no proof" (0+ / 0-)

      with correlating accusations of "conspiracy theory".

      In response to difficult revelations, that goalpost has progressively been shifted by some with a "the more you have something the complain about, the more you are a complaining, head-exploding hater who is the actual problem" argument, like the one in this diary.

      Seems to me that "how can you be shocked" sentiments should acknowledge this history of argument over proof of Obama's goals, methods, etc, or risk resemblance with the "hating is the problem" argument.

      "I am confident that we're going to be able to leave the Gulf Coast in better shape than it was before." President Barack Obama

      by quagmiremonkey on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 08:23:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  When a comment or diary starts with: (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ballerina X, Onomastic, edrie, Yasuragi

    'Glenn Greenwald sayz'

    Stop reading.

    He mad and has never gotten over it.

    I was gonna listen to that, but then, um, I just carried on living my life. - Aldous Snow

    by GoGoGoEverton on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 08:25:20 AM PDT

    •  Obama is incapable of legitimately angering anyone (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nada Lemming

      He's like some kind of holy man walking on water, working to further the interests of all without favor. Unwavering affection is the only rational response for every rational American.

      "I am confident that we're going to be able to leave the Gulf Coast in better shape than it was before." President Barack Obama

      by quagmiremonkey on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 08:35:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh I wouldnt say that. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Onomastic, Sylv, Yasuragi

        I would say that when you act mad at literally EVERYTHING, it's officially ODS territory (or just finding yourself a profitable journalism niche).

        I was gonna listen to that, but then, um, I just carried on living my life. - Aldous Snow

        by GoGoGoEverton on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 09:14:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

          •  Obama Derangement Syndrome (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GoGoGoEverton, Yasuragi
            1.     Obama Derangement Syndrome

            The acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the statements -- nay -- the very existence of Barack Obama.

            http://www.urbandictionary.com/...

            "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." Hubert H. Humphrey

            by Onomastic on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 09:41:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I would add that this illness (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Onomastic, Yasuragi

              affects BOTH sides of the political spectrum.

              I was gonna listen to that, but then, um, I just carried on living my life. - Aldous Snow

              by GoGoGoEverton on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 10:25:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  When did President Obama achieve perfection? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dallasdoc

                Was it when he was born? When he first held a baby aloft at a rally in his benefit? When he promised to filibuster telecom immunity? When he voted for telecom immunity? When he continued the secret dragnet on constitutionally protected communications?

                I mean, when did it become obvious that any consistent and unapologetic criticism from whichever direction on the political spectrum cannot be rooted in preexisting yet varied political beliefs but must, due to Obama's perfect aim at the only legitimate position within that spectrum, be equally misguided and furthermore uniformly paranoid -- a fearful grudge held by detestable freaks who cannot bear the very existence of such well poised sanity?

                "I am confident that we're going to be able to leave the Gulf Coast in better shape than it was before." President Barack Obama

                by quagmiremonkey on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:22:50 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm sorry, but if you're making informed (3+ / 0-)

                  policy critiques what would ODS have to do with you?

                  ODS, as far as I can tell, is applied to those who are all or nothing in their reactions.

                  There's no context, no wide ranging analysis.

                  It's always personalized and reactive.

                  Nothing the President has done is ever right or even close to reasonable, while the context in which the Administration has to operate is completely ignored.

                  Include the cherry picking of "facts" and editing of quotes to fit the meme and that's what people refer to as ODS.

                  There is a huge difference between that and making a thoughtful, examination and critique of policy.

                  MB and others do just that all the time.

                  "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." Hubert H. Humphrey

                  by Onomastic on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:39:05 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Prob w/ most ODS accusations: casual application (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Dallasdoc

                    Again, how can one possibly know that a critic "act(s) mad at literally EVERYTHING (POTUS does)".

                    Do any critics remark on "literally EVERYTHING" the President does? How do they find the time and through what venue are they observable, and how does any other person have the time to survey such a horde of opinion?

                    It is my impression that the ODS label is often leveled against those who FREQUENTLY remark negatively on the President's actions.

                    Problem there is what I was pointing to with my "perfection" question". The ODS hurlers assumption is that the President is correct on most issues. That is simply not a good test of the sanity of others and naturally relates most reliably to one's own values and calculations.

                    Personally, I can't understand having frequent praise for the President, given all the pain and misery he seems so willing to facilitate. But if you applaud increasing authoritarianism, promoting austerity, cutting Social Security, "signature strikes", letting Wall Street regulate itself, letting polluters regulate themselves and pour millions of gallons of toxins into the Gulf, I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to label you insane.

                    "I am confident that we're going to be able to leave the Gulf Coast in better shape than it was before." President Barack Obama

                    by quagmiremonkey on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 12:20:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  "act mad at literally EVERYTHING" ? (0+ / 0-)

          Seems a silly claim. How could anyone have the time and venue to comment on EVERYTHING the Administration does?

          Even if someone only comments in anger, the only thing proven is that they pipe up only when they find a policy outrageous. When they are not commenting, who knows what they think?

          "I am confident that we're going to be able to leave the Gulf Coast in better shape than it was before." President Barack Obama

          by quagmiremonkey on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 10:36:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The ODF (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dallasdoc

          Is obsessed with ODS.  

          Bad things aren't bad! And anyway, there's mitigation!

          by Nada Lemming on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:09:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  There are many, many experts (5+ / 0-)

    sounding the alarm about the level of surveillance that is  being carried out by our government. By all means, don't rely solely on Glenn Greenwald to make up your mind about this. NSA veteran and whistle-blower, William Binney, seems like a pretty credible source. An expert one, I would dare say.

    I think what frustrates many of us is the inability of some to understand that the story is neither about Glenn Greenwald nor Obama. It's difficult sometimes when you decide that your values are embodied in particular individuals, because 99% of them will disappoint you at some point.

    The point is that we have a right to know how both government and private entities are invading our privacy and to what extent. And the point is also that intellectual honesty is about not moving your line in the sand depending on who is encroaching on you. When this was done under the Bush administration it was just as wrong and antithetical to an open and transparent democracy as it is when authorized by any other administration.

  •  I interpret this diary to be a form of (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Onomastic

    FishGrease's operational therapy on the DK Community....sort of like hormone replacement therapy before sex change.

    The diary isn't just a diary.   The diary is a form of community therapy....attempting to moderate the action and toxic effects of loss of perspective in evaluating the performance of President Obama in the NSA matter, or writing President Obama off based on disagreements on a single issue.....by using humor, comparisons and narrative descriptor alteration.

    Now let's just see if FG will declare the above paragraph as "FB"

    PS.....Hey FG, there is a new oil/gas honey in DK town....
    I told her I assumed she's here because she is a DEMOCRAT like you, FG, understand you're a Democrat.

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    I wrote her a note suggesting that she/he write a diary about how Gasland is "FB" and is an anti-science movement, but Petroleum Engineer didn't think DK town is ready or willing to be unplugged from the Gasland media conflation.

  •  If you forced me to guess... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Onomastic, Sylv, Yasuragi

    Okay, I mean, "My opinion is:"
      There is an enormous quantity of info here. We're talking hundreds of millions of phone calls every day. Intelligence services absolutely need tools to narrow searches in this massive data pool, both for everyday legwork and in times of crisis.
     Such vast data streams require a separate entry point to have value. A known criminal or front. They can show trends, or uncover unknown associations. Businesses with a higher volume of traffic, multiple users for single lines, etc could be a natural hub of communications for criminal activity of all kinds.
     Can we start by asking what are the legitimate needs of the intelligence community, how do they request and/or demand info from companies, how are the communications companies responding to those requests, and what safeguards need to be in place to protect people and not compromise intel operations.

  •  thank you, fishgrease, for your excellent summary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    emelyn, Onomastic

    of this site (and the fluffpo's and firey dogged lates, as well).

    greenwald is the new sirota - any "reporter" who bashes dems is a darling of the demonizers.

    i sometimes feel like i'm reading little green footballs, red state, breitbart, etc., when i come here and see all the vitriol directed toward democrats - then i notice the little hints that these are third party trogolites who are most active in the blame-game, yet those same individuals don't have enough courage of their own convictions to admit it for fear they are being "baited" so they can be banned.

    those who fall into this category use this site in a most dishonest manner, imho.   either one stands by one's convictions and principles, or one has none.

    yet, these same small prolific posters will never openly admit they are acting with subterfuge.

    what is very concerning is that when enough people continually post the negative shit, it rubs off (perhaps it is what they want)

    two days ago, an 85 year old friend (who i'm teachng how to use the computer) angrily said that obama hadn't done anything since being elected.  well, before her lips had closed, i'd pointed out that the republicans in congress were the reason why and how they had vowed to block anything he tried to do - by the end of the conversation, that one voter's mind was changed.  why did she have that opinion?  because those around her constantly fed the same negativity we see on THIS site - the one that is a democratic blog - NOT a libertarian rag or "anarchist daily" (although, you'd never know it sometimes around here).

    seems to me that WE have a choice to make - how we are going to go forward on this site.  do we let those who are trying to tear down the system of government (that, btw, isn't going to be torn down by a bunch of bloggers - no matter how much they cry "ARAB SPRING IN AMERICA!) - or do we get involved with the business of electing democrats to drive the republicans out of congress.

    frankly, i look forward to the day when we focus on the republicans - who is vulnerable, who can be defeated at the ballot box, how to expose more people like bachmann and rid the house of those lunatics and more - instead of all the "obama BAAAAD" - and the "you're just cheerleading" and "your hero" type of garbage.

    i posted the other day in a comment, it is time for US to take back this site by not participating in those diaries - the radack conspiracy du jours, the obama is evil incarnate, holder is a dick type diaries.  it's time for us to do our own work and start posting about issues that are real and can be changed and how they can be changed - and that isn't by whining on the web.

    my interpretation?  first come facts (not rumors or allegations from one source who validates the "i hate democrats/obama/two party system/everybody-who-disagrees-with-me crowd) and then diaries about actual ways to move forward to change the makeup of congress.

    defeating democrats and leaving open those seats to be filled by republicans might "feel good" - but it opens the numbers game to further destroy this nation - like nader wanted to do.  not me - i want to see this nation grow and people able to live decent lives again.  this ain't about ideology - it's about practicality in how to take back this nation!

    ugh.  too early on a sunday for this much anger.

    thanks, fg - as always!

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 09:55:32 AM PDT

    •  Go check out Little Green Footballs now (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe, edrie, Sylv

      You might be surprised at what you see. The site owner had a change of heart four or five years back.

    •  Little Green Footballs on this issue: (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      edrie, Sylv, Onomastic
      Greenwald Gloats, Twists Words of National Intelligence Director
      Why libertarians love him so
      I’m pretty sure I didn’t vote for Glenn Greenwald; and although I have serious reservations about the government culture of secrecy, Greenwald is the very last person I want deciding what should be secret and what shouldn’t.
      An interesting comparison:
      Glenn Greenwald and Glenn Beck: A Comparison
      Common theme: the US government is an evil entity
      On one hand we have Glenn Greenwald claiming that the United States is “building an enormous structure” with the specific goal of destroying all privacy and anonymity in the entire world…...and on the other hand we have Glenn Beck claiming that the United States is becoming a “totalitarian state” that “will be remembered as the most evil nation in the history of the world,” dwarfing the Third Reich. And I’m sure he feels this isn’t hyperbole either....Apart from their political orientations, what’s the essential difference between these two extreme opinions?
      http://littlegreenfootballs.com/...

      Charles Johnson and LGF began steering a new course quite some time ago.

      “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

      by Catte Nappe on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 10:42:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  wow! haven't been there in a while - must go (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe, Onomastic

        check out the "playing field" on lgf...

        thanks for the info - i love it when people wake up and see the light!

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:19:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well, color me shocked. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe

        Thanks for that, Catte.

        Been reading SmartyPants take on things and highly recommend it. http://immasmartypants.blogspot.com/...

        In one of her pieces she linked to a fascinating exchange between Greenwald and Al Giordano that occurred a few years back.  Greenwald's arrogance was stunning.

        http://narcosphere.narconews.com/...

        "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." Hubert H. Humphrey

        by Onomastic on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 12:58:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Interesting links (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Onomastic

          The first one alludes to an important aspect of this situation

          But one of the main tenants of liberalism is a belief in the idea that robust government is necessary to reign in the overreach of capitalism.
          How much are we alarmed that NSA is collecting or has this information? How alarmed should we be that the private sector has it to give them, and that companies like Booz Allen are the ones actually processing it?

          “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

          by Catte Nappe on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 07:41:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I remember reading about the GW Bush (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Catte Nappe

            administration outsourcing data collection back in the day and not liking it then anymore than I do now.

            That of course, reflects the Republican philosophy of the private sector always being better than government, something I disagree with.

            There is so much to consider here, so many points of intersection, between conflicting views on the role of government, the relationship of government with the private sector, privacy and security, electoral politics, the media, trust and lack there, various court rulings, and our ubiquitous technology itself.

            I'm far from having a snappy sentence or two with which to sum up my thoughts on all this.

            Wish I did in some ways. It would be much easier and less disquieting.

            fou posted a link to a great piece in the New Yorker looking at the role Justice Sotomayor could potentially have in limiting NSA's actions, that you may find interesting.

            http://www.newyorker.com/...

            "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." Hubert H. Humphrey

            by Onomastic on Mon Jun 10, 2013 at 08:01:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Except (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SpecialKinFlag

    to my great disappointment and despite promising "change" Obama has in fact been merely more of the status quo.

    - no prosecution of clear torture crimes by Bush
    - no prosecution of TBTF banks despite clear evidence of wrongdoing
    - prosecution of more whistelblowers than all previous presidents combined
    - an economic policy that clearly benefits the rich over the rest of the country
    - a horrific homeowner help plan
    - an energy policy heavily dependent upon fracking (wonderful for the environment)
    - a health care policy crafted by and for the health care lobby.
    - a drone policy that is mindboggling if not itself a war crime... let's kill people with no trial, even if they are innocent.

    other than the absolute minimum one might expect from a Democrat Obama has disappointed. I would not call him an asshole, but I would call him ineffective and in some ways dangerous.

    If we are going to have a world where the state can spy on anyone carte blance because everyone in power is a wimpy coward afraid of the big bad unknown (while ignoring climate change, population growth, species decline, gun control, .. you know the real threats) then it is going to be a two way street - NO SECRETS FOR THEM EITHER.

    BRAVO Greenwald et. al.

    There's room at the top they're telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill

    by taonow on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 10:08:30 AM PDT

  •  Headline of Cesca's piece sums up the usual (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dizzydean, Sylv, Yasuragi
    NSA Bombshell Story Falling Apart Under Scrutiny; Key Facts Turning Out to Be Inaccurate
     This always happens. Always. Whenever something "breaks" knees are jerked and conclusions are jumped to. Then, over time, more nuanced information comes to light and the overall picture shifts focus to a greater or lesser degree.

    “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

    by Catte Nappe on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 10:34:24 AM PDT

  •  Our rights are being eroded in the name of (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Free Jazz at High Noon

    counter-terrorism.

    I don't care if they're being eroded by Republicans or by Democrats.

    I really don't.

    Anyone who works to erode them is going to take a fusillade of criticism from those of us who are fighting for our right to privacy.

    I find your post here to be pretty out there.

    There are those of us who are critical of the President because we're disappointed in him. We see missed opportunities. We see a failure to combat the Republicans. We see this ludicrous idea that somehow Obama doesn't have to actually fight the Republicans because his second inaugural is going to break the wingnut fever.

    I don't see any fevers breaking over on the right.

    We're critical of Obama because he didn't fight in 2010, he "kept his powder dry." We're critical of Obama because he tries to be "no drama Obama," someone willing to compromise our position with people who aren't willing to compromise at all.

    We're critical of Obama because while he's had every opportunity to fight the Republicans, to show how they're totally devoid of ideas, to fight back on every front, he has continued to try to play the middle man, and try to triangulate. Triangulation is an understandable strategy if it works, but the Republicans are so extreme right now that they're not interested in any compromise at all.

    By failing to fight the Republicans, he delivered the house and statehouses into their hands.

    We are critical of the president for a number of quite valid reasons. We don't think that he can't do anything right, we don't think that everything he's done is wrong.

    We think that he's missed opportunities, and we've been disappointed in him since the healthcare debate back in 2009, when he caved on single payer. I know I have. And frankly, I haven't seen anything from him at all to make me believe that he isn't a milquetoast placeholder. I think he's a weak president, and I think he's a weak president because of the choices he's made.

    And that disappointment has only grown with every passing attempt at compromise. With every attempt to kick Lucy's football. With every step he's taken that has helped push us further to the right.

    Yes, the Republicans are critical of the president because they don't believe that a Black man should have any job in the White House that doesn't involve a mop and bucket.

    But to lump those of us who have actual criticisms of the president and in with the racist is insulting, hyperbolic, and disingenuous.

    You accuse us of running around with our hair on fire, but you seem to be pretty hysterical yourself.

    And all because, in this case, we're fighting for the Fourth Amendment?

    You actually think that our criticism of the Federal Government in this case is about who Barack Obama is, rather than what he is doing?

    I'm not running around with my hair on fire, because OMG OBAMA.

    I'm furious about what the NSA is doing, and I don't give a damn who's in the White House when it happens, I'm fighting it either way.

    This isn't about Barack Obama. If this was about any individual, our fight for electronic freedom would be about Aaron Swarz.

    This is about the fact that our fourth amendment protections are being eroded. This is about the fact that our current batch of federal prosecutors are out of control. This is about the fact that we're still not done un-doing the Bush administration.

    I don't care who's involved or what letter appears next to their name when they're on TV.  I don't care what the excuse is. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that this stops.

    And as for what "this" is?

    We're talking about a pattern of overreach. PRISM is only a small part. We're talking about Aaron Swarz, about SOPA/PIPA/CISPA, about Net Neutrality, about communications privacy, and a myriad of other issues involving our right's to privacy, speech, and association, which are under assault right now.

    You can try and muddy the waters all you like by calling me "far left" or whatever silly name you want to come up with. You can accuse us of having our hair on fire. But the hyperbole isn't going to stop us from working on these issues.

    Your "with us or against us" rhetoric isn't helping the situation at all.

    An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

    by OllieGarkey on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:10:56 AM PDT

  •  I too am tired (0+ / 0-)

    Of all the vitriol nonstop of my hero and savior Britney,  er, Barack.  When they leave her, I mean him, alone?

    Bad things aren't bad! And anyway, there's mitigation!

    by Nada Lemming on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 11:13:43 AM PDT

  •  THANK YOU! Greenwald is the chief shit-stirrer (4+ / 0-)

    of the "Obama is an asshole" cult.

    This is coming from someone who's far to the left of Obama. I'm quasi-socialist, believing that government exists to protect the safety of its citizens and those within its borders, and that "safety" includes tons of regulatory safeguards and a robust social safety net that cares for people when they are down and helps them get up again. I believe that the profit motive has no place in health care or in public education, and a whole lot of other socialistic-sounding stuff, and yes, I'm disappointed at some of the concessions the Obama Administration has proposed. Social Security and Medicare aren't "government giveaways," they're insurance policies that employees and their employers have paid for all their working lives, so they're not the government's to be "bargained" away. As you can see, I'm no "Obamabot."

    But as the ringleader of the "Obama is an asshole" cult, Greenwald does a great disservice to liberalism by trashing the person who seems to be pulling some of the country's sentiments leftward. (With lots of help from the RWNJs, of course. The "debate" over gun safety has become a legislative debacle, although public sentiment sides with the President.) But if you're honest with yourself, you probably didn't think in 2008 that under Obama, 12 states would legalize same-sex marriage by 2013.

    So, to Greenwald and others of his grandstanding ilk, STFD and STFU. You're not an expert in this area, and your "Obama is an asshole" stance doesn't further the cause that you claim to espouse, the cause of liberalism.

  •  Actually, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Free Jazz at High Noon, Sylv

    I, too, am still an ardent supporter. 

    Having said that, let me outline a few items regarding this recent NSA "scandal"... and my relevant perspective:

    1) "Today's Headlines: Administration Says 
    Mining of Data Is Crucial to Fight Terror"

    There is no doubt in my mind that this is true. I lived 9/11 NYC ... and given the potential in this day and age for wanton destruction ... preemptive vigilance is the only way to prevent. Hard truth. And if there is a serious attack, you can rest assured Obama will be blamed for negligence. And THAT blame might be well placed. But not for being vigilant, no. Now, if Obama abuses intel, then sure, that is a justfiable scandal, but not vigilance.

    2) But then ... there's this (dairy): 

    "Missing the Point: It's the Secrecy That Threatens Democracy"

    Valid points, and well worth the read.

    3) And MB also raises some other related valid points, also well worth the read:

    Nothing to see here. Move along.

    But still, again, I have not lost my faith, trust, or support of Obama.   Yes, I want Obama to be challenged on this and these, along with, challenging his Keystone/Tar Sands position related to Global Warming, but at least with Obama, I do feel he is listening. I do question some of his choices and influences, but that's what we must always do. And, politically speaking, I believe the 2014 election is of paramount importance, wherein we must retake the House, and retain the Senate (hopefully with a super majority) ... therein empowering Obama to accomplish some real change without the GOP obstructionist bullshit hampering his every fucking move. 

    And good to see you, fishgrease ... been a long time. And btw, my choice to send Markos an email requesting reinstatement was largely influenced by your choice to rejoin dailykos.  

    * Move Sooner ~ Not Faster *

    by ArthurPoet on Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 12:02:15 PM PDT

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